Surface Tension with Jason: Men, Intuition, and “Not All Men”

In the first-ever Surface Tension session, Raven sits down with Jason (aka Chad from Episode 9) for a late‑night, red‑envelope conversation that goes wherever the questions take them.

They start with music and inner teenagers, then spill into hallucinogenic grief rituals, anxiety, and what it means when your body reacts before your mind can catch up. Along the way, they unpack men’s objectification, external validation, and why the “not all men” conversation so often misses the point when the reality for many women is “a man.”

Expect stories about mushrooms and grandmothers, Snapchat creeps, the weirdness of modern dating, and the ways patriarchy and trauma shape how we relate to ourselves and each other. It’s raw, imperfect, and honest—exactly what Surface Tension is meant to hold.

~ If you want a great convo between Jason and Raven on toxic relationships, visit Jason's podcast Tales From A Dive Bar: https://www.talesfromadivebar.com/raven-and-jd-talk-about-toxic-relationships/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey, it's Raven. Before we drop into this, quick note. We recorded this pretty late at night while I was still getting over some congestion from my weeks-long sickness. So my voice is a little extra raspy and relaxed in this one. The conversation itself felt too honest and too good not to share. So I'm letting it exist exactly as it was in the room. With that, here's surface tension with Jason. Welcome to the 515 Podcast. I'm Raven, and this is our first surface tension episode. A space for the conversations that have been building pressure under the surface for a long time. You can feel it, can't you? The shift, the pressure in today's climate. The surface tension sessions are a 515 deep dive with friends, family, and strangers in our community where we stop polishing and start telling the truth. So instead of a regular interview, we've got a stack of red envelopes labeled one, two, and three. They'll pick a number, I'll open an envelope, and we'll follow whatever's inside whatever it wants to take us. Today, I'm here with Jason. Before we get started with surface tension, I'm going to have you introduce yourself so listeners know who's in the room with us.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

What's up? It's Chad. Well, Jason, whatever. You guys can you guys will figure it out. But yeah, I'm a radio nerd. I enjoy having long, deep, strange conversations with like-minded folks such as the Raven. And I'm really looking forward to this barrage of questions or questioning that she may be subjecting me to.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

I want you to know that things may get deep. But we can make it light, we can keep it light or go all in. I it's okay if you need to pause or take a break. And that's for you and our listeners. It doesn't have to be all in if you don't want it to be.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

I'm all in. Let's go.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Okay. Well, like I said, we have envelopes here. Red, daring, glaring envelopes one through three. What number shall you choose?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Let's just start with number three. Why not? I don't know. It seemed like is this the more intense ones? Is there any I'm not telling you that I just have to go with it, okay?

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Yeah, I'm just gonna pick one. Like, I don't even know what I'm thinking. Okay. If you could go back and secretly slip your teenage self one playlist, what three songs absolutely have to be on it? And what would you hope he hears between the lines?

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Oh God. The first one. I mean, my teenage self, and this is any song in existence, huh? Well, one of them without the doubt would have to be Beyond the Pines. Like the rice. I knew you were gonna choose that. So there's that one.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

That one sticks with you so deeply.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah, that one is uh I I can't listen to it without crying. So I would probably be like, you're gonna listen to this and you're gonna enjoy it. And then the second one for the next two ones, that's where you have me stumped. Because I could I didn't even think of it. You stumped me pretty quick with that question. I mean, what's one to do? Should I go back to a classic rock song, or should I look at some new indie tune that I heard, or should I try to look back at it based on some camaraderie or some crazy wild story?

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Maybe just to help you out. Maybe look back on it from a standpoint of where you were when you needed the most input, like your inner child, like what age were you when you resonated with a song that you wish that your younger self really brought in?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

I don't know. I used to listen to a lot of gangster rap when I was a young kid. So if it resonated with me, it resonated with me because of the tone. And I don't know, I just thought it was fun, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

I'm not gonna lie, that's actually kind of fun because like I never resonated with rap, obviously. Like, we don't we're not a part of that culture, obviously. However, there were certain tones and there were certain beats that really resonated that like filled my soul, you know, and I was like, yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

And it's kind of trying to figure out do you pick a song based on the lyrics or because it gave you a fun time, a big upbeat movie. Right. So wow, that's a really good question. I mean, that's one where if I was on another podcast, this would stump a lot of people. Uh not that I ever been on a podcast ever. Frickin' Chad. But but getting back to the question. So the first song we got thrice, Beyond the Pines. Second one, I would probably say maybe Tourniquet Marilyn Manson. That'll give you a little Really? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

I think at that time I was already a teenager, and because I was a teenager when that song came out, it kind of had this weird resonant feel. If you've ever had your first breakup, you know, you start like getting you wish you'd get they, I don't know, they get mad at you and they would beat you up more or something instead of just dumping you.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

You know, it's really interesting about that song because I've always heard that that song was about his first girlfriend getting pregnant or something, and he was like just fucked up over it or something. But that could be a myth.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Like, I'm not a fucking well, that's the thing, what's real and what's not. I mean, a lot of the stuff that's written by rock stars or even in by with the help of intelligent writers never really happened. They just had to sensationalize something that would otherwise have been a pretty dull event of yeah, I got on a bus, we got on a bus, we went 2,000 miles, we got off, we got on a stage. You know, you have to figure out what you can put in between that to make it amusing.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

True, true.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

So I guess tourniquet's the second one, which is a very I was not expecting to pick that song. I was just trying to.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

I wasn't expecting it. I like that. I love that song, by the way. I also like the remix version.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

That was very dope. The bass line is what always gets me, right? At that beginning. Alright, but I won't impersonate it for your audience.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

No, please don't.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

The third song.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

What's the third one?

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Okay, so let's see. What would mark a good thing in between all of that? Children of the Grave, Black Sabbath.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Oh shit. I don't I don't even remember that one.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Oh, yeah, definitely that one.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

How did it go?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Sing it for that one.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

We were listening to the vinyl at your place.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

Yes, we were. Oh, my mom's my mom's vinyl. Oh god. Yeah, I still have that. Like, it's ready to be playing. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

So you've had some time to draft some of these questions. What are your top three songs? What are your go-tos?

SPEAKER_03 7:42

All I know is that my songs of choice are always like something from Evanescence or something from Damian Rice or Piony Apple.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Jeff Buckley, I could see something there.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

You know, actually, yeah, his version of Holly Louie, I'd put in there is maybe a top three or four or five. Yeah. Absolutely. You can't hear that and not have like a little bit of whimpering that goes on when you hear that man's voice.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

I literally wish I knew Jeff Buckley earlier than I did. I was introduced to him by my cousin in 2019. And I wish that I was introduced way earlier.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Way sooner. But that's how it was for all of us. We didn't know the story of Jeff Buckley until well after the tragedy. GR Jeff Broccoli.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

I love that guy. He eats his vegetables.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

So that would be one. Alright. Okay, so uh do what's what's next? Do we do another one or should we? Yeah, we do another one.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

This was all about the men today. But we we lost the cohort today, and it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Well, you're you're doing great with it. You're you're pivoting very well, you know. You gotta go on the fly. That's the great thing about podcasting and radio.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

And trying my best. Pick a number one, two, three.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Let's try number two. Why not number two?

SPEAKER_03 8:58

Think of a time when your body reacted before your mind could explain why. Tight chest, gut drop, going numb. Was that trauma, intuition, or both?

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

How do you sort that out now?

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Wow, that's so wild because it is kind of compounded where anxiety inside your body keeps like accelerating and amplifying, and if you can't control it, yeah, then you start feeling faint. You start feeling that like shortness of breath. You have to your blood pressure at that point is changing, so you have to sit down because you could faint. You don't want to get hurt falling. The last time that happened to me, it was after my grandmother died. We decided we were going to have a bonfire after her funeral, and I decided to eat some hallucinogenics.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Oh, this was in Arkansas, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Yeah, yeah. I haven't talked on this story on the podcast on anything yet. I haven't told anybody really about it, other than the people there. But it was intense because at about 45 minutes in, I started feeling it. I could feel like I was getting flush. I knew what was coming because I've experienced this before on hallucinogenics. I had to like unzip my jacket. I'm sweating, I'm trying to fan myself. I'm like, come on, come on. And while that's going on, I'm like, I gotta sit down. So I go and sit down, and as I'm sitting down, I'm starting to feel really faint. Like I'm going in the dream zone. I'm getting ready to fall asleep. And that's exactly what happens for like a split, I don't know for how long. But then I come to and now I'm feeling my stomach is trying to expel the hallucinogenics. Uh like, and I'm I tried this long to keep them down as long as I can, but now I know I'm gonna blow my high. So I get up because my cousin's wife, she goes, Jason, are you okay? I mean, Chad, are you okay? And I'm like, Why, of course I am, but I gotta get up and I didn't say that. I'm like, I gotta puke. I got up and I ran and I ended up puking in one of my grandma's gardens.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Did you puke in her petunias?

SPEAKER_00 11:04

No, they weren't growing yet, I don't think. But I fainted while I was there and I passed out, and I came to with me like kicking the ground. But while I was going on with that, all I could think was like how much of a disgrace she'd be looking at me right now and how upset she'd be. But I'm not done. Like, because at this point I've blown my high. The hallucinogenics, they're still on, I'm woozy, but I decide okay, I'm gonna go back now and do it again. So I give myself about 10 minutes. I drink a little water. By now, I'm still like having really bad body temperature issues. And this is something that goes on with anxiety or fainting or having that your body temperature freaks out.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

It's bad.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, so I tell my cousin, Yeah, I just blew my high, I threw up, and he goes, You want some more? And I was like, Yeah, I kind of want. Of course, yeah, okay, let's see. Of course you didn't. So I went back and did them, and about a half an hour later, I am stoned out of my mind. I couldn't move for two hours. I was staring and meditating into this fire, but during that time, I'm experiencing all the environmental conversations around me. I'm absorbing them, but I can't speak. And while that's going on, I'm still having this internal spiritual connection where I'm trying to understand things about what does my grandma want? What would she she wouldn't just be disappointed? She'd have something probably funny to say that we'd all laugh about, even though it is supposed to be the Catholic guilt. But by the end of it, well, by the end of it, because I got out of it, and at the end of it, it was kind of weird because I heard a voice, and I don't know, maybe it was a feminine energy, and it said, You're already going the route in the way that you need to go. You're already doing what you need to do. You didn't need to take the mushrooms to find out. And that's where I knew she was speaking to me, and I was having some weird It was your grandma speaking to you? Yeah, like at the end, and it was wild, but it's like, you know, it's I look at it as just an outworldly voice, but then I look at it and I go, I'm getting this voice or this knowledge or hearing that from something that's clearly not there. Right. But when it's telling me that it's in such a divine and motherly way that who else could it really be? I mean, anytime I've ever had an experience like that, it's been down on that ground, that sacred area where they live, and I mean, it was just wild, it was magical. I I hope I answered your question. Yeah, it was about it was in the beginning of April, as when I experienced the chest pounding faint panic attack and everything, and then still had to enter it was about like being different from you are now, you know.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Like if you google back, no, no, that's different. Think of a time when your body reacted before your mind could explain why was that trauma, intuition, or both. So, like, what what is it?

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Like, was it all that it started it started as trauma because I've had it happen before. Right. So my intuition takes hold to remind me I need to prep and do some stuff, and then there's just another thing, yeah, that final thing that takes off.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

That's really good. That's a really good point, actually. Like, I've had that a lot in the past few months from divorcing my ex-husband, you know, where it's like the intuition actually turns into trauma, and the trauma turns into intuition, and you actually go back and forth and weave into this tapestry of like a new self. You know, like I don't know, like I feel like that's what you did, and that's what I feel like you're doing now, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

But that's because I know it works at peeling back certain layers of your personality, but when you do that, you do have to kind of expose and look at some things in your core and see that you know you're trying trauma, or better yet, it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to dig deeper and let that light out of the core that's there. I guess that would be kind of like an inner child thing where you can go back and find deep trauma. And maybe that's where you have to go when you're going into that place with anxiety, is saying, Hey, I'm gonna walk down these stairs and I'm gonna open the door and let the kid there know, hey, I got you. Shit sucks. I get it, but we're gonna help you. You're here, I got you. Oh shit. You know, it's like a weird you go deeper to maybe that's one of your questions in there is reaching in for your inner child.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

There are some there, but maybe you should pick another one, you know?

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Okay, yes. All right. I I'm sorry. I rant really well, Raven. This is your podcast. I apologize in advance.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

So now you're good.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Well, as long as I'm good with it. Uh, if you're good with it, I'm good with it. I like it so far. All right, give me a number one. Let's see it. El numero, what do you got?

SPEAKER_03 15:51

All right, let's dig deep. Let's go. I love how you can hear it on the mic, too. It's like ASMR for everybody. Anyway, uh, let's see. Objectification and external validation don't just happen to women. How have you, as a man, felt objectified, whether for your body, your productivity, your paycheck, or your emotional labor?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Oh, God, yeah, absolutely. Objectification for like doing jobs or work, not just for like past corporations and companies I've worked for, but like just being in production, it happens like that. Because people are always interested in they have an idea, but you're the one that's kind of have to put in it all and helping do the legwork to bring it to fruition. So that can be a big thing where you kind of have to look and say, I'm gonna say yes for as long as I can until I have to start saying no because other things are coming in.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

You are the cog and the machine.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, yeah. And and even then it's weird because there's a process with that. You do get chewed out and you do still feel objectified, but then for me, at least in my experience, especially earlier when I did radio and my radio career, I still had an outlook like thinking I'm going to be okay, and you know what, it may have chewed me up and spit me out, but I don't think it's done with me yet. And then all of a sudden I was back in it again. It's so weird how that kind of happens with the, you know, I I guess don't dwell and start blaming the objectification that may have occurred. You have to be able to move past it and find peace, kind of like, you know, you just shrug it off.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Did you ever feel this way with a relationship? A romantic relationship?

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Yeah, sure. I think you feel more objectification when you're in a hard situation with somebody in a relationship. It makes it easier to not objective just objectify them, but objectify yourself. So it's almost like you're trying to invite crueler behaviors or crueler things uh being said or happening in a weird way. I might have missed it or went over the head on that one.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

No, you're totally cool. I gave you a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

What was the third part of the question that you had on there?

SPEAKER_03 18:16

It was something else like I was objectification and external validation don't just happen to women. How have you as a man felt objectified? Whether for your body, your productivity, your paycheck, or your emotional labor.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Alright, so for my emotional one, I guess that kind of goes with the intimacy.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

The objectification comes from the fact that you're not being honest in the relationship because the thing that's objectifying you is external from it. It's usually something that could be from work or you know, some issue going on with families arguing or friends or whatever. Self-validation. What was that self-something? I that one's easier for me to explain if we want to go into anything.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Objectification. Like, I think it's uh you're taking it from the point of view, and and this is my opinion, I could be wrong, but like I I think you're taking it from the point of view as being objectifiable, like my objectified opinion. But we're not talking about objectified or subjected or objected opinions. We're talking about objectification, which is dehumanization. Like you're being turned into an object, like a like dance monkey dance, you know, like we're talking about someone who just wants someone for a sex object. Someone is just a doll, a mechanic, you know?

SPEAKER_00 19:55

I think people do that in this a weird way to themselves.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

They can, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

And that's kind of what brings on maybe that kind of a behavior or that kind of a pattern in a relationship. I don't know. I I hit a wall right there at that point. No, what pretty intense.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

I will say that what you were saying is very spot on as well, and I agree. And I also validate you in that sense because like I think you're right. Like, yeah, but from that point of view and that question, it's coming from constantly being dehumanized and objectified, as women often do. Just like I told you this guy on Snapchat last night. Yeah, like like he didn't see me as a person, I saw him as a person. I was like, hey, dude, I don't have people. Let's talk because it's entertaining and I got nothing to do for the 20 minutes that I'm awake. You know, like let's talk. And he turned it into some sexual ass shit. And I was like, What the fuck? And he was like, Oh, sorry, you know, like I'm weird.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I just want to piss on you, and I'm like, Yeah, it's just completely looking at you like you're an object at that point.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Like, that's just why the dating scene is just awful. I don't I don't know though. For me, I look at that stuff and it's like, is this really a person? And even if it is, what has gone on to where that's where you're at in your life, to where you're sending a text message like that. I mean, the thought of it being even to you or to anyone that I know or a friend, or even later on in the future, it could happen to like one of my nieces or something. I'd want to punch this guy's head off if I ever met him in real life, assuming it's a guy.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

Yeah. I mean, he sent me a picture, but is that really him? I don't know. Yeah, you know, like I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

If you're gonna have a relationship where you say, Okay, it's just gonna be something like that, where it's in a just kind of okay, you're gonna just use each other as objects, even when that's the case, even if you're in a dating pool where That's occurring, or you're in an age frame where you're still trying to learn how to develop, even if that's what's occurring, you still feel empty. You still feel like you're missing something, and the reason why is because what you're doing at that point is not going to fulfill whatever it is you're trying to figure out. You shouldn't lie to yourself about it and say this is what you love or this is what you want to get into. You should really probably internalize to figure out why that is. But the thought of just being in that spot and not even looking at your body as something better of like, you know, I should treat it better as a temple. I should look better on myself. It brings better people around me when I don't have that kind of element coming around at that point. You're not going to find a normal relationship and fall in love with your soulmate if you're banging a bunch of random people that you've met off of the internet, so you know, such especially if you're pissing off. Yeah, especially if it's into the whole bathroom scene at that point. I know. Like I would assume you you have other things going on. You're not really thinking about a monogamous relationship, but no. I don't know if I could just billboard the message across every single person that I meet on the internet or see as a potential contact. And that just it seems like it's inviting a bad element in, no matter what way which way you look at it.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

No, it really is, and it's just I don't know. It's just weird. Like, I just wish people would be more authentic. Or maybe these people are being authentic, and that's why you can rule them out, you know. Like I don't know, but I I just think like, what the fuck is wrong with society? That I get a random message on Snapchat, and uh first of all, I know people are gonna be like, Well, it's Snapchat, what do you expect? You know, I don't give a fuck about that because I didn't go on Snapchat for one night stands. I'm sorry. Yeah, I went on there for networking and talking to my friends in a weird dynamic sort of way.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Well, it was yeah, the disposable media, it would messages that disappear and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

Which I don't even like. I always like to save my chats for 24 hours, you know. Like I save them forever, and like I'm on Snapchat because of the dynamic. Like, you can do video, you can do filters, you can do text, you can do I love the dynamic, but I guess society is right in this regard. Like, men on Snapchat, they just want to find it.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

It's very objective, yeah. It's very much like, you know, we're not I'm not doing this to win you over. I'm doing this because this is where I'm at. And that's like I guess there's no BS behind it. You know, there's no true there's no there's a line drawn in the sand, but I just can't see it hitting the mark all the time.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

No, and it's so stupid because like for me, I want to be on something like that to perform, to do art, you know. Like, I I spread the news about my podcast. I take pictures of my dog and my lizard, like, or if we're together, you know, at a bar, like we'll t we'll snap a selfie. Yeah, like yeah, what's wrong with that? You know, it's like it's kind of like a live Facebook in a way, you know, like a live, like who cares? Yeah, like why does it have to be a sex thing?

SPEAKER_00 25:23

I've missed touch with a lot of the internet on that because even when it was back in the MySpace days, and it was where you could very well see then meet and see your top ten eight friends or whatever, and you could have 2,000 friends, and all you could think is man, this person's probably hooked up with a lot of people in those 2,000 friends that they've met. Oh god. You know, because that was their first version of like a dating site, only it was social media. It was a social thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

And I guess I could see it, and I would relate it to the same way to where I could see that being to where that could be the start of where people could objectify. Yeah. Maybe at a young age where I still didn't have a fully developed brain, that might be something I'd want to have indulged in. At the same time, I was also at the point where I was like, I have things that I'm more interested in than go into the bathroom on somebody. I'd rather like get my degree, I'd rather try to do something with my life. I don't want to drag somebody into me being into my craziness. I don't want them to drag me into their craziness.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

Even though that's a whole different subject, Jason, because you'll drag anyone into your craziness under the guise of not dragging them into their craziness.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Yeah, sometimes that happens. You try not to, and you end up going full, full crazy. You know, you go full hard.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

And on that, Matt, pick another number.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

All right, let's do another one. Um, how about I let you pick the number? Just go for it.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

We'll do one again because I feel like there's a lot of goodies.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

I trust you.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

I don't trust me at all.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Here we go.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

Oh no, let's see. This is perfect. Let's talk about the not all men conversation. When you hear that phrase, what comes up for you? How do you hold space for women's fear and anger while still talking about your own experience as a man?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

So I guess not all men respond to women's anger with anger, maybe, but to learn how to be temperament and then actually be able to bring the situation into a more de-escalated or calmed or more civil thing, not all men are capable of that either.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Not all men are capable of regulating their emotions. That's the issue. Not all men are capable of being honest with themselves. Not all men are capable of being able to tell the truth at a certain point, if you want to look at it from a mentally like got some type of defectiveness going on. They could just be straight up sociopathic liars.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

It's true. And I think my favorite phrase from that is not all men, but a man. From my experience, and from some statistics, but honestly, from my personal experience, yeah, sure. It's not all men, but it's a man. It's a man who has really, really fucked me up. It's a man who has crossed my boundaries, it's a man who sexually assaulted me. It's a man who raped me. It's a man who totally betrayed me. And I can tell you for a fact that every girl friend that I have had has the same stories I do. Whether it's like, you know, here or there, like, you know, yeah, there's different stories, but they're all on the same line of it's a man.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

It's a way more common story than people would believe. It's a point to where even when I recall talking to somebody, they're like, I'm terrified for my daughter because I just know that it's unavoidable. I have to do everything I can to just teach them how and it's things that you don't teach boys, escape routes, you know, like thing how to get your qu your quickest exit. Like little things like that.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Know your surroundings, carry your keys and your knuckles, you know, when you walk to your car. Like I shouldn't have to be taught that.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Yeah, you know, it's unavoidable to a sense to where you have to understand as a man that all men have to deal with some other man really messing you up, like it could be your kid, it could be a family member, it could be a close, you know, anything, you know. It's messed up because it's that common. It's more common than people want to admit.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

Have you had experiences with like telling another man to back off or to actually say, like, hey, no, you're not right. Have you ever told yourself that?

SPEAKER_00 29:59

In fact, I've almost gotten to a point to where because you read that in people and you see how messed up they are, you have to distance yourself from them. You you I become more avoidant. I become more, I don't need that person in there. And when that comes down, it's also like, hey, you know, keep your eye on this person. There's something off about them. I don't know if I would want them around my kids or is that what you tell people? Because I I'm trying to see like I do it in a way where I'm like, if I have a bad vibe about someone or I think there's something like that going on, it's you you warn people. It's it's a communicative thing, but at the same time, I'm not the one to look at them and go, hey, you're fucked in the head.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Like, I'm not the one that's gonna confront them.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Right. And you're not diagnosing someone, you're just literally like, hey, I don't get a good vibe, and this wasn't cool. Because, like, my point of view is that I think the male loneliness epidemic, quote unquote, and like so many other things can be fixed by men themselves. We as women do not want to fix your fucking problem.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

You shouldn't have to.

SPEAKER_03 31:06

But at the same time, what do you do in the situation where a man is out of line? Like, if you're in a group of dudes and he's like, Yeah, that bitch was hot. Like, I fucking put it up her ass even though she didn't want it. You know, like you should be like at that point.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Are you dude? Just shut up. Yeah, it's I mean, right off the bat, I'm not interested or going to like give you alkalades for something that's so stupid and sophomore that's like you should say something. Yeah, that's my point.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

You should say something, you shouldn't be be like, oh, peace out. You should be like, uh, dude, that's weird. You shouldn't think like that. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

That's uh I've said to somebody before, hey, curve your language. Oh, that's when they didn't get it, then I had to kind of get more stern and be like, hey, you know, you need to shut the fuck up now. And that was different because it's a different thing. It's playing off of I'm already triggered because you know, I I've also had to be the one to be like, no, you're not sitting here, dude, have a nice night. You know, and it's doing things like that then. Yeah, it sucks. You feel horrible at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

It does because it's your peer group and it's your and it's like your quote unquote family because you're like a bar family. You know what I mean? Like it's your it's your peeps, you're hanging out and you're trying to have a good time. But the I think the most genuine small act of fighting misogyny and the patriarchy is having the men stand up, stand up, say, hey, I don't like that. That is weird to say, you know, like actually literally being like, mmm, no.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Like I've done it before, and I had to do it in a way where I had to be like investigative on it in order to verify that something had happened. So when the guy tried to put it off and say that this is how it happened in his way, and then the lady immediately said that's not how it happened, I just went right at him. I'm like, oh, so she wanted it, huh? And so now I already started working him and beating him down, and then by the end, I'm like, Do you at least not feel sorry? Do you not at least not admit that you'd make a mistake? And he was then immediately went into your full of shit. That didn't happen. And it's like, no, you just told me, you know, uh how am I full of shit if I'm calling you out for doing something?

SPEAKER_03 33:29

That's the fucked up part.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

And once he did apologize, all right, I'm sorry. I made it, I'm like, uh I shut up. But at that point it's all awkward. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of other stuff that happened in between that where like I had basically had was yelling outside and around the bar, hey, don't let your girl, your kids, or your daughters or nieces be anywhere near this guy. He thinks it's okay to grab him. So it, you know, it was thing where I just started calling him a groper. Now, after it all happened and it all went the way it went, you feel bad just like you would for calling anybody out. But there was also this really big ego boost. At that point, I'm feeding off of my own adrenaline. I was who's to say that I'm right for feeling that way, but am I really wrong?

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Well, do you feel right because you're you think you're macho, or do you feel right because you did the right thing?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

I felt good because I broke this guy. I used my words and broke this guy. And even then, once I got what I needed, you know, I knew that uh the next thing I do is just shut up and now I'm not doing anything. It's run its course. But you're beaming with so much adrenaline, and you're just thinking, and everyone else, like, because even then I said, you know what, hey guys, sorry, I didn't mean to really make a scene on that. It was like, oh no, that was awesome. That's great. Yeah, I hate that guy. So it worked out for my favor in that sense, but I didn't have any of the support of any of my bar peers when it happened. No, I just heard the story from what the bartender had told me, and then when I asked him about it, he made it seem like, oh, she wanted it. Like, oh, she was like she was fine with this. She was leaning over and basically telling me to grab her.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

God, I hate that so much. I hate that so much.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

And I knew it was a bullshit lie, but since I caught him on it, he didn't want to admit it. Most narcissists aren't gonna admit anything at all.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

And it's very, it is very great because, like, as a former and still probably a fauner, I'm a freezer and I'm fauna. Yeah, I will fucking make you feel like you're wanted and you're allowed, but I don't want it.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

I just don't know what to do. And in survival mode, I'm like, I'm gonna be aware of it.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Well, it's gotta be rough for you females because even if you're liking the attention, you still have to look and say, All right, back off, Fido. It's not like that. They instantly get drawn into where they can want to try to push more and more, and it becomes a violation of a boundary.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Exactly. And we're also taught to be a people pleaser, we're also taught to go with the flow, and we're also taught to freeze and bond because, like, if we fight, we might die.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Yeah, you don't want to get hurt, so that's like the big thing. People like want to say, Oh, we're all equal. No, if a guy actually wants to try to fight a woman, there better be another man there to go ahead and stop it immediately. Yeah, and it's one of the biggest things that I think everyone needs to understand is it stay out of people's bubbles, even if you are upset, you can talk it out, you can have a higher tone about it. But you know, if it's gonna go to being insulting or it's gonna be degrading, or you're gonna look for anything as an intro to go ahead and just try to break somebody, you're not gonna solve the problem that started this to begin with. Maybe you're just the problem to begin with at that point. Usually they are. I mean, yeah, and that's the hard part. You can't reason with that. What are you feeling? Should we take a little break? We're right around the 42 minutes. All right. Well, guys, be sure to check out the 515 podcast with the Raven. She's got it dialed in. I really enjoyed this questioning. Hopefully, you enjoyed issuing and dishing it out to me, and hopefully we do more of these.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

Well, yeah, I'm the host, not you.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

See you break.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Yay, it's Raven again. Popping in to close out this surface tension session, you'll hear us mention taking a break and coming back for more, but the night took us in a way different direction, and we decided to let the conversation land where it did. If something in this episode echoed for you, I'd love to hear what rose to the surface on your end. You can message me on socials or through the five and five site and let me know what you're still thinking about. Thanks for being here and for letting these imperfect, honest conversations have a home. I'll see you on the next one.